New job, new state, new car, flocking! - Page 3

E_Swift · 11-07-2007, 08:14 PM

You probably can't be totally sure on #1 or #2 until it is disassembled. Just take many pictures, number all the parts by location with a paint pen, etc first. Then tear into it.

Once disassembled, we can look a bit more into what exactly happened. So what was the history of the failure, from first indication to ...? I saw something about a bent rod...? Some evidence was lost when the timing belt was removed.

I Like It Sideways · 11-07-2007, 08:19 PM

interesting about #1.

I should have disassembled the head myself. I left it with the dealership, stupid me. From what I saw, it seemed like the valves were in good shape.

I'm picking it up tomorrow and I'll be looking for the operations manager that made the decision.

I'll look into sending it off to the lab. That would more than likely be worth it in this case.

And the spark plug is intact.

Thanks for the feedback on the pictures. I could use all the help I can get with this.

Edit:
There were no signs of failure, until the engine wouldn't turn over upon trying to start it. Before that, it ran perfect, and I didn't hear any suspicious sounds. Although my girlfriend said that she thought my car sounded different than it did before I took it in to get serviced. My only guess is that she may have been hearing this object bouncing off the valves in the intake runners.

The dealership listened to my car once I was able to get it turned over and started, and said that they thought it may have been rod knock.

What would have been lost when we removed the timing belt?

E_Swift · 11-08-2007, 09:03 AM

The name of the place is Chicago Spectro Service Laboratory, Inc
773-229-0099

So how did you get from not being able to turn over the engine (assuming here you were just using the electric starter, right?) to running?

Potential mis-timing proof would be lost when the belt was removed.

There are only a few things that will prevent an engine from being turned over. One is valve-to-piston interference (unlikely but always a question after doing a head gasket)

How soon after the service did you see problems? This you would know right away.

Have you looked at measured/plastigaged the bearings? This is how you can rule out rod knock as a contributor.

I Like It Sideways · 11-08-2007, 09:16 AM

At first I thought it was a dead battery. So I replaced the battery with a stronger one while I was at it. That got the engine to turn over and fire up. I thought the belt may have jumped a tooth, but the dealership said it did not (who knows if they are yanking my chain). That was one of the first culprits I asked them to look for.
I put 794 miles on the car before this happened.

I did not know I could plastigage the bearings. We haven't torn down the block enough to get to them.
I always thought that rod knock was a gradual onset, not sudden though.

E_Swift · 11-08-2007, 09:39 AM

Well, you're right - rod knock is usually gradual onset.

This is a "traditional" ignorant/incompetent mechanic issue in some cases when the head is removed. Basically, if both heads aren't drained of coolant completely before loosening the head bolts, you stand a strong chance of getting coolant in the crankcase. You see this more on V engines and inlines rather than boxers, but I'm sure it is possible. Usually, an oil change cleans things out, but it really should be 2. Did the dealer charge for an oil change? An oil analysis could have been done, but since you have also pulled the heads, it becomes impossible to prove.

In any case, the bearings will have a characteristic coloration if they have been attacked by acid, which is what happens to coolant that has mixed with the oil, in addition to boiling where pressure and heat transfer are needed, and generally decreasing viscosity and oil pressure.

I'm still betting on foreign debris, given the size of that lump.

I Like It Sideways · 11-27-2007, 12:22 AM

It was definitely caused by the foreign object... but they just won't own up to it. I think I am going to send it to that lab... maybe we can figure out what exactly it is, and use that as evidence.

After all this is over, I'll disassemble the block and rebuild it.

As for an update on the car:

Stripped out the carpet and center console. Trunk has been stripped as well. Need to remove sound deadening though.

And installed this graphite gasket from GrimmSpeed. I would definitely recommend it to anyone, this gasket rocks

Fixing this leak caused another to surface... so I'll be ordering another gasket.

Hit 100k on the body last weekend

strat · 11-27-2007, 03:49 PM

love the video of the stpr chicane. i'm less than an hour away from wellsboro and i love to romp up there. i'll have to find some of the footage from the subaru meet we had up there last year...

you coming to stpr in 08?

409industries · 11-27-2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Like It Sideways

WTF you have almost the exact same angle in the above shot as the one i took of my car! Same stupid tilt and everything.

I love the picture of 100K on the odometer... all artsy!

I Like It Sideways · 11-27-2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strat

love the video of the stpr chicane. i'm less than an hour away from wellsboro and i love to romp up there. i'll have to find some of the footage from the subaru meet we had up there last year...

you coming to stpr in 08?

You bet I am!! That was taken in '06. I will hopefully be crewing, a friend and I only spectated in 2006, and I love crewing more than spectating.

I definitely would love to see the footage from your meet. if it was posted on RS25, I may have seen it

Quote:

Originally Posted by 409industries

WTF you have almost the exact same angle in the above shot as the one i took of my car! Same stupid tilt and everything.

I love the picture of 100K on the odometer... all artsy!

Thats hilarious! What is it with the tilt? I saw your picture before I took my interior out... thats what motivated me to get to it and take out the carpet. I still need to remove the sound deadening, among other things.
Its going to be super easy to tighten the hand brake now

I go overboard with pictures sometimes. The 100k shot was another point and hope it takes a cool shot haha.

strat · 11-27-2007, 06:06 PM

i don't believe it was posted on rs25... it was a variety of subarus (legacy's and imprezas... sedans and wagons) the one vid my buddy made got taken down on streetfire.

i'll be there in 08 as well. probably just spectating. any plans to run the charity time/distance rally they have on friday before stpr?

kreitz3 · 11-27-2007, 06:18 PM

I too will be there in '08.

I still can't wait to see the GC this weekend!!!

E_Swift · 11-27-2007, 07:04 PM

So I take it that this is now a full-on rally project?

What's this weekend- thought rallyx was over for the year....?

I Like It Sideways · 11-28-2007, 01:23 PM

A few Subaru guys here at Purdue are coming over to my house for food, forza, DiRT, and driving. Kyle is just the outsider from Ohio, that we consider as one of our own hahaha

You're welcome to come too, if you can make the time! I think we are doing it tomorrow night/Friday

And this is now a rally project. It will be well over another year before it's finished, but gotta start somewhere.

kreitz3 · 11-28-2007, 03:31 PM

Hey. I'm not the outsider. You are the Buckeye posing as a Hoosier. Mole.

409industries · 11-28-2007, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Like It Sideways

A few Subaru guys here at Purdue are coming over to my house for food, forza, DiRT, and driving. Kyle is just the outsider from Ohio, that we consider as one of our own hahaha

You're welcome to come too, if you can make the time! I think we are doing it tomorrow night/Friday

And this is now a rally project. It will be well over another year before it's finished, but gotta start somewhere.

I wanna come play too :(

Nice to see its a full on rally project now! DI has quite a few GC builds in the works.

11-07-2007, 08:14 PM	#31
E_Swift Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You probably can't be totally sure on #1 or #2 until it is disassembled. Just take many pictures, number all the parts by location with a paint pen, etc first. Then tear into it. Once disassembled, we can look a bit more into what exactly happened. So what was the history of the failure, from first indication to ...? I saw something about a bent rod...? Some evidence was lost when the timing belt was removed. Last edited by E_Swift; 11-07-2007 at 08:19 PM.

11-07-2007, 08:19 PM	#32
I Like It Sideways Forum Moderator Car: 91SS,06WRX,01RS Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rockford, IL Thanks: 55 Thanked 144 Times in 101 Posts View Photos By: I Like It Sideways	interesting about #1. I should have disassembled the head myself. I left it with the dealership, stupid me. From what I saw, it seemed like the valves were in good shape. I'm picking it up tomorrow and I'll be looking for the operations manager that made the decision. I'll look into sending it off to the lab. That would more than likely be worth it in this case. And the spark plug is intact. Thanks for the feedback on the pictures. I could use all the help I can get with this. Edit: There were no signs of failure, until the engine wouldn't turn over upon trying to start it. Before that, it ran perfect, and I didn't hear any suspicious sounds. Although my girlfriend said that she thought my car sounded different than it did before I took it in to get serviced. My only guess is that she may have been hearing this object bouncing off the valves in the intake runners. The dealership listened to my car once I was able to get it turned over and started, and said that they thought it may have been rod knock. What would have been lost when we removed the timing belt? __________________ My Youtube Channel 2006/2008 - Western Ohio Region SCCA M4 Champion 2007 - Ohio Valley Region M4 SCCA Champion, 2nd in M4 Western Ohio Region 2008 - Great Lakes Division M4 Champion 2009 - ESC 3rd place M4 Matthew Noble Marker= - You will not be forgotten. Rally on. Last edited by I Like It Sideways; 11-07-2007 at 08:23 PM.

11-08-2007, 09:16 AM	#34
I Like It Sideways Forum Moderator Car: 91SS,06WRX,01RS Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rockford, IL Thanks: 55 Thanked 144 Times in 101 Posts View Photos By: I Like It Sideways	At first I thought it was a dead battery. So I replaced the battery with a stronger one while I was at it. That got the engine to turn over and fire up. I thought the belt may have jumped a tooth, but the dealership said it did not (who knows if they are yanking my chain). That was one of the first culprits I asked them to look for. I put 794 miles on the car before this happened. I did not know I could plastigage the bearings. We haven't torn down the block enough to get to them. I always thought that rod knock was a gradual onset, not sudden though. __________________ My Youtube Channel 2006/2008 - Western Ohio Region SCCA M4 Champion 2007 - Ohio Valley Region M4 SCCA Champion, 2nd in M4 Western Ohio Region 2008 - Great Lakes Division M4 Champion 2009 - ESC 3rd place M4 Matthew Noble Marker= - You will not be forgotten. Rally on.

11-27-2007, 12:22 AM	#36
I Like It Sideways Forum Moderator Car: 91SS,06WRX,01RS Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rockford, IL Thanks: 55 Thanked 144 Times in 101 Posts View Photos By: I Like It Sideways	It was definitely caused by the foreign object... but they just won't own up to it. I think I am going to send it to that lab... maybe we can figure out what exactly it is, and use that as evidence. After all this is over, I'll disassemble the block and rebuild it. As for an update on the car: Stripped out the carpet and center console. Trunk has been stripped as well. Need to remove sound deadening though. And installed this graphite gasket from GrimmSpeed. I would definitely recommend it to anyone, this gasket rocks Fixing this leak caused another to surface... so I'll be ordering another gasket. Hit 100k on the body last weekend __________________ My Youtube Channel 2006/2008 - Western Ohio Region SCCA M4 Champion 2007 - Ohio Valley Region M4 SCCA Champion, 2nd in M4 Western Ohio Region 2008 - Great Lakes Division M4 Champion 2009 - ESC 3rd place M4 Matthew Noble Marker= - You will not be forgotten. Rally on. Last edited by I Like It Sideways; 11-27-2007 at 08:55 AM.

11-27-2007, 06:18 PM	#41
kreitz3 Senior Dirty Member 2002 WRX Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: OH Thanks: 5 Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts	I too will be there in '08. I still can't wait to see the GC this weekend!!! __________________ 2002 Aspen White WRX - gone 1996 Outback Sport - 250,000 miles Never argue with stupid people. They will bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

11-08-2007, 09:03 AM	#33
E_Swift Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The name of the place is Chicago Spectro Service Laboratory, Inc 773-229-0099 So how did you get from not being able to turn over the engine (assuming here you were just using the electric starter, right?) to running? Potential mis-timing proof would be lost when the belt was removed. There are only a few things that will prevent an engine from being turned over. One is valve-to-piston interference (unlikely but always a question after doing a head gasket) How soon after the service did you see problems? This you would know right away. Have you looked at measured/plastigaged the bearings? This is how you can rule out rod knock as a contributor.

11-08-2007, 09:39 AM	#35
E_Swift Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, you're right - rod knock is usually gradual onset. This is a "traditional" ignorant/incompetent mechanic issue in some cases when the head is removed. Basically, if both heads aren't drained of coolant completely before loosening the head bolts, you stand a strong chance of getting coolant in the crankcase. You see this more on V engines and inlines rather than boxers, but I'm sure it is possible. Usually, an oil change cleans things out, but it really should be 2. Did the dealer charge for an oil change? An oil analysis could have been done, but since you have also pulled the heads, it becomes impossible to prove. In any case, the bearings will have a characteristic coloration if they have been attacked by acid, which is what happens to coolant that has mixed with the oil, in addition to boiling where pressure and heat transfer are needed, and generally decreasing viscosity and oil pressure. I'm still betting on foreign debris, given the size of that lump.

11-27-2007, 03:49 PM	#37
strat Senior Dirty Member Car: PSM 2002 WRX Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Williamsport, PA Thanks: 2 Thanked 26 Times in 24 Posts View Photos By: strat	love the video of the stpr chicane. i'm less than an hour away from wellsboro and i love to romp up there. i'll have to find some of the footage from the subaru meet we had up there last year... you coming to stpr in 08?

11-27-2007, 06:06 PM	#40
strat Senior Dirty Member Car: PSM 2002 WRX Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Williamsport, PA Thanks: 2 Thanked 26 Times in 24 Posts View Photos By: strat	i don't believe it was posted on rs25... it was a variety of subarus (legacy's and imprezas... sedans and wagons) the one vid my buddy made got taken down on streetfire. i'll be there in 08 as well. probably just spectating. any plans to run the charity time/distance rally they have on friday before stpr?

11-27-2007, 07:04 PM	#42
E_Swift Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So I take it that this is now a full-on rally project? What's this weekend- thought rallyx was over for the year....?

11-28-2007, 01:23 PM	#43
I Like It Sideways Forum Moderator Car: 91SS,06WRX,01RS Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rockford, IL Thanks: 55 Thanked 144 Times in 101 Posts View Photos By: I Like It Sideways	A few Subaru guys here at Purdue are coming over to my house for food, forza, DiRT, and driving. Kyle is just the outsider from Ohio, that we consider as one of our own hahaha You're welcome to come too, if you can make the time! I think we are doing it tomorrow night/Friday And this is now a rally project. It will be well over another year before it's finished, but gotta start somewhere. __________________ My Youtube Channel 2006/2008 - Western Ohio Region SCCA M4 Champion 2007 - Ohio Valley Region M4 SCCA Champion, 2nd in M4 Western Ohio Region 2008 - Great Lakes Division M4 Champion 2009 - ESC 3rd place M4 Matthew Noble Marker= - You will not be forgotten. Rally on.

11-28-2007, 03:31 PM	#44
kreitz3 Senior Dirty Member 2002 WRX Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: OH Thanks: 5 Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts	Hey. I'm not the outsider. You are the Buckeye posing as a Hoosier. Mole. __________________ 2002 Aspen White WRX - gone 1996 Outback Sport - 250,000 miles Never argue with stupid people. They will bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.